Over the last month I have listened to two visiting speakers at our church. One point raised by one of those in discussion and the same point was raised very directly in a sermon by the other was the view that the AA are resigned to the fact that an alcoholic can never fully be recovered from drink and that that view is wrong. The view instead stated was that it promotes nothing but failure by doing so, and that alcoholics can only be fully recovered by knowing Jesus. I have a problem with this polarisation, and also the fact that it seems it cannot be understood differently. I shall hopefully give you an example that will makes things clearer…
Just imagine that there is a person who attends AA because of his addiction. He stands up and says that well known phrase “My name is Jo, I am an alcoholic. I have been coming here for a length of time, and progressing towards being alcohol free by being able to manage it in a way that helps me to stop being tempted”. Then there is the second person who attends church, stands up and announces “I am a sinner, I have done many things wrong but I know that Jesus loves me. I continue to get things wrong, but I know that over time, God is changing me by the Holy Spirit and that some of the things I did, I no longer do intentionally, but I still do and get things wrong in my life. I know I am a work in progress, and that God is involved in that journey with me”.
One understands himself to be a recovering alcoholic, and the other understands that he is on a journey where he doesn’t have to be perfect. What is the difference between the two? Clearly one may not directly involve God as he understands it, and the other would attribute those changes to a faith in Christ. The first is a recovering alcoholic who is tempted but manages to have a system to rely on, the other is a sinner who is also tempted and has a system called faith in Jesus to help him.
I would argue that God is involved in both cases, one just doesn’t recognise it. John Wesley would probably attribute the alcoholics change as being prevenient grace, a journey towards acceptance of Christ and living in Christ. I am a sinner, I still commit sin but try not to. The alcoholic is also a sinner, who still commits sin but tries not to by means of an AA course. I need to read some views on this please. It affects how we interact with other organisations. Do we clash constantly, do we totally confuse the person with the drink problem, or do we seperate ourselves from reality and think that God only works through Christians…. if you think the latter, where did Babylonian King fit in the scheme of things when he released the remnant to rebuild a temple? Ii think my two friends have got it wrong….. what do you think?
Good for you. Nineteen years ago in my early A.A. days, I set out on a quest to determine what, if any, role the Creator, His son Jesus Christ, and the Bible had played in the origins and development of the original A.A. recovery program in Akron. And I’m still learning.
For example, in just the last two years, my son and I have explored in depth the Christian roots and beliefs of early A.A. that flowed from their days as youngsters in Vermont of A.A. Cofounders Dr. Bob and Bill W.
Dr. Bob said his family and he had attended church 5 times a week and also that he had had excellent training in the Bible as a youth. And that’s only a small part of the picture. We traveled to St. Johnsbury, Vermont where Dr. Bob was born and raised and gathered details on the Christian influences in his own family, the beliefs and teachings at North Congregational Church St. Johnsbury, the Christian Endeavor Society activity in the church, the YMCA influence, and his matriculation at St. Johnsbury Academy–where there was daily chapel, Scripture reading, required weekly church attendance and Bible study. It’s presented in Dr. Bob of Alcoholics Anonymous. http://dickb.com/drbobofaa.shtml.
We also thoroughly investigated Bill W.’s youth in East Dorset Vermont and in the Congregational Church and Sunday School there; also Bill’s Bible studies; and then his extensive training in the Bible at Burr and Burton Academy where there was a four year required Bible study course, required daily chapel, required weekly attendance at Manchester Congregational Church, and the involvement of Bill in the school YMCA of which he was president. Some of the details are presented in The Conversion of Bill W. http://dickb.com/conversion.shtml.
The transmission to Akron and its early Christian Fellowship program is detailed in The James Club and The Original A.A. Program’s Absolute Essentials http://dickb.com/JamesClub.shtml; and When Early AAs Were Cured and Why http://dickb.com/alcoholismcured.shtml. See also http://dickb.com/goodbook.shtml.
I first came to AA, which by doing the twelve steps helped me through God to gain control over my temptation to drink. Three years later I came to Christ due to my continued attempts to improve my conscious contact with God (refer to the eleventh step of AA).
I have also wondered if we in AA somehow are not accepting true freedom by stating that we will always be alcoholic, but I have reconciled this in my own mind and spirit. No one suggests that a drug addict should ever attempt controlled use of the drug that had them in bondage once they have broken that addiction. I believe that I would be very unwise to ever willingly partake of alcohol again, given the trouble which alcoholism has caused myself and some other members of my family in the past. I also believe that this is how God would wish it for me. The twelve steps of AA are based on Christianity (indeed there are many parallels with areas of Christian deliverance ministry), and my involvement in AA assisted me to come to Christ. I don’t personally see any contradiction between my faith and my being a member of AA, indeed, I feel that they complement each other.
Are you still wanting to talk about some of this… I’m an alcoholic… whats my identity now…and now training for presbyteral ministry in the methodsit church…John wesley has something to say here…grace, salvation, justification, sanctification, perfect love…
Christ is present in others…
thevinyard,
sure, no problems discussing this further if you wannt to. I think the article and the comments so far point in the right direction in that there seems to be an understanding of God being present and active in this situation. The points you raise re Wesley are aligned with this from what I can see, but we have to be careful with Wesley’s phrases in that Sanctification and Perfect love are one and the same thing as is Christian perfection.
So, how do you want to address this subject? Where and how has your journey taken you top this point so far re what you understand as your calling to ministry? What obstacles have you had/see coming your way if any?
aavey, thanks.
Lots here to talk about…I agree -Sanctification and Perfect love are one and the same thing as is Christian perfection.
When I wrote that I had a feeling you’d notice – I guess I was getting some key phrases down in a short piece of writing.
How do I want to address this subject? To start-a few quick points I guess… Have a look at my blogg- just posted quick small posts so far. I am looking at aa, Wesleys hymns and the methodist covenant prayer essentially as the basis. I know it will go much wider- it has to- so much tradition and experience and reason- I beleive ‘God is present’ where-ever human interaction takes place and certainly in the aa.
Where and how has your journey taken you to this point so far re what you understand as your calling to ministry?
I did’nt come through the aa- I fell to my knees in a prayer [did not realise at the time it was essentially the covenant prayer] that was the change. 6 years on and I’m doing a ba hons in theology and pre – ord training..[word and sacrament] I need to write a history and post it on my blogg for info – so much to say…essentially- grace-faith- salvation- response- growth in holiness in society…of course God present in all and it seems to be rooting itself more and more in the theology of wesleys hymns…but yet there is so much more…
I took my brothers funeral in october last year- he died of alcoholism- at the grave a friend who uses the 12 steps through narcotics anonymous said- ‘you got your reliogion and I am wlaking with mine…’ ‘without either we would not be here’
What obstacles have you had/see coming your way if any?
had many, many obstacles and hurts- how shall we go about disscussing this further?
Posts on subjects? with comments or…
How about you? Whats your experience in all this?
Sorry about the typo’s
I think I need to clarify a few things regarding the sources of my frustration in the original article to show the background and why I object to what I had heard and discussed.
There is a tension in the theologies of the person who I had the original discussion with. He is a very committed and faithful person who comes from a very different denomination, culture and theology and I would suggest that the fact that he is a 5 point Calvanist encourages a certain view when people falter and unfortunately lapse resulting in a funeral at some stage in the worst scenario.
The Ministry I was involved with attempts to help the addicted whether it be drugs or the more sovially acceptable drug of alcohol, and my friend is at that church, employed by that church and is a member of that church – a church that in many ways reflects Welsey’s ethos of doing God’s work without falling out over differing theological positions. I consider myself to be very Wesleyan, and very ecumenical in approach to life but it can create some problems.
I think we at times, particularly in Western culture, have seccumbed to an over rationalistic position when practicing the liturgy of the Lord’s Prayer – unlike Wesley who as you know practiced a quaderlateral approach before it became labelled as such. I think at times I/we have language difficulties rather than conviction and praxis. Unfortunately we suffer from’respectable’ church and what I phrase as ’selective holiness’, and it is this approach that almost veers in tandem with common ground in relation to TULIP. Many Nazarenes do not recognise God’s work outside the Sunday Service unfortunately, despite a missional mandate we suffer from mission being done ‘over there’ or abroad only, but that is an area I have written on before!
Wesley was very wise by understanding that God is far greater than us getting the whole plot! I personally have spent since ‘92 working with addicts in many varied ways. Firstly as a non-Christian who was being worked on by God preveniently. From that position I can now understand far better that there is a rational and personal responsibility. In addition to a period as a Christian, it is clear that the redemptive themes in Wesley’s hymns and a refusal to ‘write people off’ has been with me and echoes Israel’s continual struggle to live according to the Covenant, and in fact the journey of all the disciples who continually just didn’t get it, culminating in denial for a period before the penny dropped. I think Wesley’s urgency and practice of graces in communion etc. reflected his ability to be surprised by God constantly harnessed with a reluctance to formulate everything. He understood that God was definitely not a one-trick pony!
I think the AA and Na require disciplines that are totally aligned with being a Christian. Integrity, honesty, experience and regular practice. Some understand the kind of journey – some don’t but I suspect our response is understood very differently than my friend.
Below is part of an article witht he link to follow the rest. Sometimes it is harder than hard to just keep trying time after time. Sometimes it seems like a tall greasy pole that is unclimbable, but the thing I want to stress is that sin (whether it be drugs, crime, anger or anything else) is beaten by a multi-faceted appproach with God – even when we don’t realise it. We are nudged time after time and it is the tension with a commonality that succeeds – in fact it mirrors Trinitarian living.
“The subject of last night’s lecture was the need to recover the concept of virtue in the life of the believer. He argued that transformation is the goal of the work of the Spirit in our lives, but that learning to live “Christianly” in the world is much like learning a second language as an adult. The process of building our moral or Christ-like muscles takes conscious thought and diligent work within the context of the community of the faithful and through the means of grace until what once was not our nature becomes second nature. The goal of discipleship is to work with the Spirit as we move toward the renewing of our minds into the nature of Christ.” – NT Wright
http://drtscott.typepad.com/pastor_scotts_thoughts/2009/02/nt-wright.html
Thanks for your relpies- very very inspiring…
‘…unlike Wesley who as you know practiced a quaderlateral approach before it became labelled as such. I think at times I/we have language difficulties rather than conviction and praxis… the redemptive themes in Wesley’s hymns and a refusal to ‘write people off’ has been with me and echoes Israel’s continual struggle to live according to the Covenant…Wesley’s urgency and practice of graces in communion etc. reflected his ability to be surprised by God constantly harnessed with a reluctance to formulate everything…
The quotes from NT Wright look fantastic, ‘The process of building our moral or Christ-like muscles takes conscious thought and diligent work within the context of the community of the faithful and through the means of grace until what once was not our nature becomes second nature…’
So true…this is truly inspiring as is what you write. Very Weslyan. I can clearly see it all here- grace- faith- response-
Ref to NT Wright- Lived in the community of the faithful or lived in community of the whole people…? The means of grace, ref to Eucharist, prayer, scripture etc ?
Sorry I have not got back to you before now, my head is somewhere in ‘Christ made present at the hospital bedside through listening’ It’s essay time………!!!!!
The Vinyard had made some excellent points here. The sense of Wesley’s refusal to do everything within a formulae is a valid one, although he did create his own systems in other areas which were joined together well to show how a people within community build each other up – ie his Class system. This did indeed show that he was more than aware of the Holy Spirit being active in any given situation. I think the 12 Step Programme reflected this throughout as well. I see no difference is a group (class) being together to exercise grace and accountability with a common aim whether it be in religious-speak or any other. That accountability practice is being put into place.
The above reflects community, and by and large that is where the whole community as a church has to show the difference in approach that is in such contrast to the consumer world that is driven by rationalism and the self. Over the next two days I am at our denominations AGM where I will be unfortunately seeing so many that have lost the Wesleyan concept and thus effectively being selective and caught up in ‘church respectability’. By doing so, they are choosing who is and who isn’t worth showing God’s grace and love for people. As a consequence the consumerism goes unnoticed and rationalism takes over. The business world (and churches who copy it for church growth etc) has copied church in many ways, marketed it to excess and as a result we now suffer from good principles being tainted with bad motivation and coercion and describe it as secular. I think that is where we have arrived with people who do not like a 12-Step Programme without the word God mentioned. I would say that God does not only become active or the Holy Spirit to trigger responses – the Trinity is active when IT chooses.
The whole concept of being Trinitarian means community. It means unity in diversity – this is how we should approach things, and hopefully do when the Sacraments are practiced and not just done twice a month – but daily. Wesley was always criticised by some for the importance he placed on the Daily Offices and Communion with such regularity, but he did believe that practice, regularity, accountability and the opportunity to confess to each other and God throughout his classes showed many things… people are at different stages, the time taken to get there varies, the importance of experience was also important as was many other things. To me, it all adds up to community, to being who we should be regardless of weaknesses. That is why the AA and others are important and reflect Christ in a multifaceted way, and very subtle.
The community outside church will only change to true community if we show our genuine vulnerability, and are active practicing community amongst the and not just amongst ourselves.
Let’s keep this going…
You HAVE a good thing going. But sometimes it’s hard to tell whether the writers are talking about Wesley or Wilson. I think it’s important to have a site which allows this kind of free expression of A.A. from a religious standpoint. It is equally important to understand that there are tens of thousands of Christians in A.A. who are awash in the higher powers, pseudo-spirituality, and nonsense prayers and expressions. The difficulty is not with A.A. It is with the people who fail to recognize A.A. history, recognize that it was a Christian Fellowship, recognize that thousands of Christians are still coming and present, and that these Christians don’t need to see stones thrown at either the church or A.A. They need to know that our Heavenly Father is alive and well wherever we are and that we need to avoid distractions that come largely from the Adversary. Old-tme A.A. had a good thing going too. And people need to know what it was and that it is still available today. See http://www.dickb.com/alcoholismcured.shtml
God Bless
It’s been a few busy long weeks…to qoute you first,
‘The whole concept of being Trinitarian means community. It means unity in diversity – this is how we should approach things, and hopefully do when the Sacraments are practiced and not just done twice a month – but daily.
Wesley was always criticised by some for the importance he placed on the Daily Offices and Communion with such regularity, but he did believe that practice, regularity, accountability and the opportunity to confess to each other and God throughout his classes showed many things… people are at different stages, the time taken to get there varies, the importance of experience was also important as was many other things. To me, it all adds up to community, to being who we should be regardless of weaknesses. That is why the AA and others are important and reflect Christ in a multifaceted way, and very subtle’.
Me now-
Communion- yes, yes, yes, Is a Eucharistic revival possible in this day and age? Spirit led…
I went out to lead a Contextual Bible study the other night with three homeless guys and I am helping them find a Church- however they are worried about fitting in a church and want to form a group on the edge. I am trying to help them see that praying and reading scripture etc together is one thing but to be with the body of Christ in the church and observe the sacramnets is crucial.
Question- regarding Communion ‘Catholic or Evangelical’ does Methodsim balance the two…
Thanks
I think Wesley was very ecumenical in his approach and ambraced facets that would encourage the Christian life to be a constant and consistent life. I therefore would avoid the categories mentioned. ‘Catholic or Evangelical’ would not provide a sound understanding in my humble opinion, hence his reluctance to be seperate from Anglican – he saw that the Anglican church needed to reform from within, which is what his intention was. I think he would also dislike the two categories, and may even view them as sectarian in view and attitude (something he was very much against).
I am not sure where you are, but City Mission originally set out to bring the gospel to the 15% (poor, addicted etc) but came across an obstacle that has not changed in my view from Wesley onwards…. to integrate many has been difficult and impossible. The barrier being ‘belonging or believing first’. Quite often, new churched were formed as a response to the institution rejecting or certainly not being welcome to the ‘other’. I do think house groups (Wesley would have called them Classes) are a sound basis to being on a journey, exchanging experience and balancing it with Scripture, Reason and Tradition. Sacramentally, I accept that some kind of base/accountability with other Christians is very important and in my view a requirement. I do think and believe that the Eucharist is a means of Grace and that the Holy Spirit is active during the Eucharist, but also in all other times as well.
I suspect that your approach as a group to be on the edge, may be the method to pursue in that numbers may well grow in number and graces. Surely, that should be encouraged, and only when the time and church is appropriate for them as a group or individuals to become part of an established church. But I also suspect (with history supporting it) that the movement will then become somewhat stifled by the establishment. I’d like to know what you think and how things go for you and the group. I would be inclined to think ‘Kingdom’ rather than ‘Institution’ though.
I meant Catholic and Evangelical… I posted back on Are we yet alive, from my blogg…
Some good and interesting points on the Wesleyan approach to the Eucharist. Following your blog …